aaaaaaaa ssssssssss says

It's about time they brought it back. And oh aye it was sore.

Paul Wall says

Great video what a re-enactment. How did it come about?

Paul Mmmmmm says

Pretty darn realistic! I never warranted the full six in my time at school but escaped several potential four stroke beltings... Did it do much damage? In most instances - no, but the mix of sadistic teachers and the pyscho sexual pleasures they would have got from 'belting' must have heralded some abuse? It should be brought back in a strictly (sic) controlled setting, but of course we'd have to pull out of Europe to enable such a thing...

loraine twigg says

Church Antiques says. We still buy and sell lochgelly tawse from our base in fife. churchantiquectr@aol.com 07950 923814

loraine twigg says

I still Buy and Sell Lochgelly Tawse from my base in Fife churchantiquectr@aol.com 07950 923814

Jim says

When I was at school the belt was a quick and very effective way of maintaining classroom discipline, and like many schoolboys I had a healthy fear of getting strapped.

It certainly had value as a deterrent and consequently most good teachers rarely had to resort to using it, but we were all aware that it would indeed be used if necessary.

Experiences vary, but in some schools it is clear that the belt was used too often and for very minor offences.

Undoubtedly this hastened its demise, which is a great shame, because when used sparingly and as the ultimate sanction the school strap was a safe and appropriate method of punishing poor behaviour.

John Smith says

I was a bit of a bad lad and probably a bit of an under achiever. A few strokes of the belt from a teacher like that would have focused my attention and standard of work to a higher level!

J Mc says

The Lochgelly tawse. Made by the Philp and later the Dick families in their shop in Main Street, Lochgelly. Used by teachers in almost every school in Scotland and feared by generations of pupils for over 100 years. Thousands were employed in producing coal in the area but only a few saddlers made the tawse and yet Lochgelly is more famed for its tawse than it is for its coal!

Linda Puleo says

I only got the belt once and it was enough. However, a certain Mr. R. in our primary school was a bit of a vindictive man. He used the tawse on my brother and purposely missed his hands causing red welts to rise on his inner wrist and inner forearm. Did my brother learn anything? Yes he did...he learned that it isn't wise for a schoolteacher to anger our Mum. Until the day he died Mr R avoided any further contact with Mum and he still had 3 more of us to get through primary school. Lesson learned but not the one he expected.

jim downing says

o that boy is brave..i was always doubled over trying to stem the ferocious sting with my hands between my thighs crying my eyes out..even at 16

Paul Walker says

I wouldn't misbehave if that was the penalty! It's the efficiency that is scary. Just 25 seconds.

Paul Walker says

How long would the stinging have lasted? Was it very painful?

Jim says

Getting the belt is excrutiatingly painful, especially when a hard tawse is being used by an experienced teacher. Each stroke immediately imparts a shocking numbness then almost instantly a deep, throbbing, agonising sting. The sting radiates up the hand towards the wrist and intensifies, before beginning to fade after 10 or 15 minutes. After about an hour the worst of the pain fades, but the hands remain hot, tender and sore to the touch for some time after the punishment.

Paul Walker says

No wonder they say it is effective.

Chris H says

Ouch, that looks painful! Glad it wasn't in use at my school. Great re-enactment and well taken by the guy being belted

J Mc says

Getting the belt was a humiliating and very painful experience. Having to walk out to the front, hold out your hands and get belted by your teacher in front of your class was something you definitely wanted to avoid, especially if your teacher had a Lochgelly belt, which had a reputation as being the sorest and which most teachers used.

The pain fron the strap was sudden and extreme, as if your hand was on fire with deep, throbbing, stinging pain and then having to hold your hands up again for another stroke.

Some pupils shook their hands or cupped them to their mouths and blew into them in an attempt to ease the pain, but it had little, if any, effect. Once back in your seat the pain seemed to get even worse, intense agony and with some parts of the hand numb from the strap. Holding on to the metal frame of your desk in an attempt to cool your hands achieved little.

The severe pain lasted quite a while depending on how hard you had been strapped and how many strokes you got, but your hands could still be sore over an hour later. Eventually the numbness lifted, the pain started to subside and be replaced with the hands having a tingling "needles and pins" feeling before the pain diminished and the hands were left red, very warm and sometimes puffy with fingers feeling like sausages.

For folk who are interested, I see there is a detailed history of the Lochgelly tawse in the "Area and History" section.

James Brown says

It seems unbelievable now, but most Scots men over 40 will still have painful memories of this abuse. Of course then it was necessary to try to take it without showing the hurt, but the truth is that it could be excruciatingly painful and in the hands of some sadists it was effectively torturing children. Here's the story of some silly wee lassie who qualified as a teacher in the 1970s and took it up with enthusiasm: http://blethers.blogspot.com/2009/01/corporate-effort.html

Paul McBride says

I think James is missing the point. Most of us who received this will agree it was painful (it was supposed to be) - but would probably not agree that their teachers did anything wrong in using the belt. Quite the contrary - when deployed properly it was a both very effective at both punishing bullies/cheats/disruptive pupils and discouraging misbehaviour by everyone else in the class. This was good for everyone. If I had to choose between going to school back then and going to school now - I'd choose back then every time.

James Brown says

Paul, perhaps it is you who misses the point. Whatever the end result, violence is not justified, especially violence perpetrated by educated adults on defenceless children in their 'care'. And no matter how much local pride Lochgelly may have in this history, the thickness and density of these leather products were capable of inflicting pain that went far beyond anything that could be considered moderate and reasonable. It is a national disgrace that the whistle was not blown on it long before it was - and that is not to start to go into the motives of some of the people who battered children with these implements, or the nature of the satisfaction they derived from thrashing and beating them. There is an abuse scandal here, as much as the extreme cases in some of the children's homes and approved schools, that is yet to be given a proper public airing.

Paul McBride says

Any abuse is terrible and I would join you in condemning it absolutely. But that's not what I am talking about. In most schools, the belt was simply used to set clear boundaries for acceptable behaviour. If you stepped over the line there was a price to pay. As a result, schools were safe places where the learning of the majority wasn't disrupted by the thug-like behaviour of the minority. Also, I think you are rather exaggerating the level of pain caused by a belting. Yes, it hurt - and you would try to behave properly so you wouldn't get it. But it really wasn't the end of the world if you did.

James Brown says

Paul, let's be clear, in many instances, "belting" was a brutal and sickeningly painful assault with a fearsomely thick leather strap.

Maybe your experience was only of fairly gentle instances, but believe me that was not always the case. And read again some of the descriptions above. It was used too often for minor offences, it was used excessively, it was used by people who should never had permission to beat children, and it blighted the lives of many decent youngsters through fear, even if they never experienced it themselves in its worst form. The practice degraded the person wielding the tawse, and the recipient, and the spectators.

Can you imagine if there had been mobile phones with cameras back then, and the internet? Suppose an ordinary classroom belting, let alone a severe one, had been secretly filmed and shown on youtube. There would have been outrage. It will never return, and thank God for that.

Paul McBride says

I think we will have to agree to disagree - similar types of punishment delivered fairly and formally seem to work fine in other parts of the world to this day, despite youtube. I recommend meeting people from these countries - they tend to be well worth talking to. You are welcome to have the last word.

Drew Smith says

Did james Brown ever get the belt in school?

James Brown says

Yes, Drew, he did, and no, he's not going to encourage some of the readership by going into the details. Why do you ask, do you find the description exaggerated? Maybe it is you who was lucky enough not to be exposed to the extreme and abusive aspects of 'belting' and the effects of a heavy 'lochgelly' being used for maximum effect by a powerful athletic man on a slightly built child. In any event, it's gone for good, in the dustbin where it belongs, or in the hands of the 'fetish' collectors, they're welcome to it. May the supposed 'educators' who used it rot in hell.

Martin Wood says

I remeber the stinging lasting for an hour or so AND you were expected to write neatly afterwards. I got it regularly for messing around. Even got 6 from the Headie for fighting in the playground.

Never made a blind bit of difference to me - it just taught me not to get caught.

It only really worked for the ones who rarely got in trouble anyway. It was nearly always the same pupils who got it regularly.

I am a principal teacher now in a high school and I am glad it will never return - there are other far more effective ways of maintaining a constructive learning environment.

jo hunt says

I was one of those kids. You know the ones that little or one support at home and found myself in trouble. Today I would have been helped but back then it was a strapping. It made me angry, very angry and time has done little to quench the revenge I still feel is warranted. Stay hidden Ron Reid of Kawerau 1967, I'm not a little child any more and my memory of you is very clear. You kinky little bastard.

Denis Bray says

I got six of the best from our headmaster and it did me no harm whatsoever, . . as some have said here it brought respect and gave a clear indication as a deterrent as to what was acceptable and what was not.

Paul McLean says

It was the sadistic nature of the teacher's that still angers me. I saw young girls get the same as the guy in the video from a male teacher..for talking while in line! I only got it for wrong spelling and answers or being in the same row as someone who got a wrong answer. the whole row would be belted. It was sick and serious child abuse. The whole 40 boys in the class would get it if no one owned up to talikng for example. I hated school because of this. One teacher kept his new belt in vinegar for months to make it harder. Another guy in my class had his wrists burst and blood was spurting everywhere. he was sent to the school nurse. Awful memories that did affect me and how I saw adults.

Paul McLean says

It was the misuse and abuse that angered me, Many teachers were sadistic and belted for the least thing, such as wrong spelling, wrong sums. Often if I was in the row of someone who got a wrong answer, then the full row of twelve was belted. The whole forty in our large class would be belted if no one owned up to talking. At secondary school I was never badly behaved but got it a good few times for wrong maths answers or the likes. i lived in fear of school and it showed in my work. I was so terrified of getting wrong answers that I faked being sick a good few times when exams were on. One teacher put his new belt in vinegar for weeks to make it harder and went mad with it when it was ready to use. Another burst open a friend's wrist and blood was spurting everywhere. he was sent to the school nurse. He took his revenge later by slashing the guys tyres !" Many teaches started class with belting a piece of chalk to powder to show their authority. it was an awful way to be taught. Young nine and ten year old girls being belted by a grown up man was an awful sight to witness. Wish i could go back in time and stand up for us all ! I still to this day hate and resent these teachers, so it does affect some people. I hated them and still do. It was not healthy and completely barbaric and unfair. The worse thing was that my friend winessed all these five year old children being belted on their first day for talking. That did happen you know ! I was hit hardwith a pointer when I was five. Sadly this is what killed the belt, as it would have been very effective if used fairly, justly and correctly. It has gone from one exteme to the other and the belt would work in the right hands.

James Brown says

Paul, I agree with all you say, apart from the last two sentences. Belting was always an abuse, there could be no way to use if "fairly, justly and correctly." Any form of corporal punishment degrades the user, the recipient and any spectators, and would simply not be acceptable in the more civilised society we live in nowadays. And the straps that Mr Dick was allowed to produce were so heavy and thick that even in the period they were in use, it was a barbaric practice and the teachers who beat children with these implements should still be named and shamed no matter how old they are. And Lochgelly too should be ashamed of this association.

darioso 5 says

James Brown. Methinks he doth whinge too much! I don't believe you even got the belt at school, Jazzer! You say that today is a 'more civilised society' I take it you don't engage with things like newspapers or general media coverage of world events if you believe the world is more civilised now than back in 1960. That was the year I started school. I'm so grateful it was then and not Godforsaken 2010. Sometimes you got the belt - some teachers never used it at all. But the quality of education! That won't be happening again anytime soon, I assure you. darioso

James Brown says

Believe what you like, 'darioso' (got a real name?), but as it happens I did get belted at school and do read newspapers. (Though probably not the same ones you do, it seems likely.)

One thing I was absolutely clear on was that no schoolteacher was going to abuse my kids with 'corporal punishment' the way I had been abused.

Fortunately, the whole stupid business was abolished just before mine got to that stage. Their schooling, over the last 25 years (the youngest of my four just finished sixth form last year) has been infinitely better than mine in terms of the atmosphere in school and the support and the humanity of the teaching staff.

The belters tended to be petty tyrants who not only liked beating kids but were usually pretty poor teachers too. All gone, never coming back, and good riddance.

And I suggest you take off your rose-tinted spectacles. There was no golden age, it's a myth put about by the likes of the Sunday Post and the Daily Mail. And what 'quality of education'?

A lot of it was dull learning by rote, and the effect was that the lucky few prospered and the majority were assigned to the scrapheap; modern approaches that value all children and give them a fair share of educational resources are to be applauded.

And if you want a lesson in social history, i suggest you research the Glasgow 'razor gangs' of the 1930s and their later imitators like the Tongs in the 50s and 60s - or have they slipped your mind when you compare godforsaken 2010 with those happy times?

Or the Scottish reputation for football violence, that was totally transformed after the institutional violence in our schools was discontinued? Maybe not cause and effect, but plenty of evidence to associate the reduction in physical abuse of children with a better healthier society.

PS If they taught you English in your wonderful schooling, can you speak it please? What does 'Jazzer' mean?

Jim says

You make some good points James and I wholeheartedly agree that children should be taught in a caring and supportive environment, with respect for teachers rather than a fear of them.

However, I do wonder if there are some occasions where corporal punishment might still be considered be appropriate. For example, my friend's twelve year old son was recently suspended from school for fighting, something which the school (quite rightly, in my opinion) have a zero tolerance policy of.

He missed out on a number of days schooling, and now has a significant black mark on his record, which will follow him until the end of his school career. Although he fully understands the error of his ways and their consequences, he would most certainly have preferred to be punished with a sore pair of hands and closure of the incident, which is no doubt what would have happened at my own secondary school.

James Watt says

James Brown, you are right. It was abuse on a massive scale. It hasn't been discussed properly and there certainly hasn't been closure. Incredibly the treatment shown above was dished out to children from the age of 5. It did not create an environment that helped learning and development. It was wrong on every level and can't be justified or excused.

Paul McLean says

I agree 100% that the lochgelly tawse was far too heavy and barbaric and actually not allowed in Glasgow schools. However, some teachers got round this by dying them black like the corporation supplied much less severe models.

Since writing the above, I have found out that another teacher belted from the side to hit the base of the thumb and wrists and then asked to change hands. Often as much as six of the belt for simple mistakes such as spelling.

These teachers were sadists and got their kicks from belting. I have said this to an old teacher's face when I met him at a social event. I am sure he became a teacher solely to belt pupils.

Likewise my daughters just missed the use of the belt and i can assure you I would not have allowed any teacher to belt one of my daughter's.

I was horrified to find out recently that belts, canes and other instruments are widely used in schools in some states America to this day. I saw horrific photos of the damage done by the beatings in a magazine recently. I was totally unaware of this practice.

It was a disgusting way to be taught and was just an absolute abuse towards children. The lochgelly tawse was way far too fierce and I agree that many teachers should still be named and shamed for child abuse that went beyond accepted practice.

J Mc says

Perhaps we have to put the practice of corporal punishment in schools into context. We may look back on it now and say that is was barbaric or an abuse, but that is from a 21st century viewpoint. If we are no longer barbaric why do we have nuclear bombs?

Back in the 19th century a man could be executed for stealing a sheep and that was regarded as a normal practice. For several century's the tawse was regarded as a normal method of correction in Scotland's schools. It was only in the second half of the 20th century that public opinion started to turn against the practice.

It is perhaps unfair to suggest that John Dick should have been ashamed of being a supplier of the school tawse. If he had not supplied them, others would. Remember that there had been a history of Lochgelly saddlers supplying teachers with straps for many decades and they were very carefully made.

There were other Scottish saddlers who were supplying school belts every bit as heavy and thick as those of Mr Dick in Lochgelly and, had he ceased production, teachers would simply have turned to one of these alternative suppliers.

No doubt some can recall examples of excesses in the use of the tawse, but the vast majority of teachers used the belt infrequently, with moderation and usually as a last resort.

Many pupils preferred to be given the belt rather than lines, detention or a punishment excercise. With the belt the punishment was over with very quickly, a rebuke was delivered and normal teaching quickly resumed. For teacher and pupil alike it could be a quick and effective sanction that also sent out a message to the entire class.

The fact that a hard core of pupils were belted frequently could be said to indicate that it was not an effective sanction, but it had a role to play in showing just where the line was to be drawn - a short sharp shock that could quickly restore order and make a direct connection between the committing of an offence and punishment for it.

The brighter kids heeded the message and as a result were strapped infrequently. Others, more intent on disobedience and disorder, were likely to be strapped on a more regular basis as it was the only thing some of them understood, even if only in a temporary way.

There were certainly variations in the use of the belt, decade to decade, school to school, teacher to teacher, academic to non academic pupils and many factors, including the catchment area of the school concerned and the attitude of the Headmaster and staff to corporal punishment, that could cause this variation.

The problem about using a light strap could be that it sent out entirely the wrong message. There are many tales of pupils actually wanting to be strapped by a teacher with an ineffective strap. The process became something of an entertainment as pupils rejoined the queue for more, often to the amusement of the class.

Class control and the credibility of the teacher concerned suffered as a result. A heavy belt was more likely to ensure that pupils' behaved as it's reputation meant that few wanted to take the risk of being on the receiving end of a particularly painful strap.

Very often the strap did not have to be used. The simple fact that the class knew it was in the drawer, and that the teacher would use it if required, was sufficient to maintain good order and application to the work in hand.

Pete Smith says

It seems to me that this is an issue where there is significant disagreement and as such politicians should let schools, parents and even individual children make their own minds up.

Rather than imposing policy from the centre, how about letting schools set their own policies on the belt, within obvious limits (i.e. it's OK for it to sting like billyho, but on no account should it cause injury).

That way, parents who are concerned about exam results and good discipline can choose the schools with the best record in these areas. And why not involve children in the decision making process?

After all, kids who are not intending to be disruptive have nothing to lose and everything to gain from attending a school where the troublemakers are not allowed to take over.

James Brown says

Well, J Mc, that's a well-written attempt to make it all seem quite reasonable, cosy even, but those of us with clear memories of what we experienced and witnessed will recognise it as a sepia-tinted airbrushing of the reality.

You make a lot of statements as if they were fact, which are at best debatable and often just incorrect. I won't go through them one by one and make a rebuttal, it would take too long and really those arguments were all made thirty years ago, and won.

But certainly an understanding that all belting was a barbaric abuse is not a 21st century discovery as you suggest, it was the view that I, and many others, held by the time I left school in 1969.

The sad thing for Scotland's reputation is that took another twelve to fifteen years after that for the whole sordid business to be stopped, thanks to cowardly politicians and a teaching profession led astray by its weaker inadequate members and a fair number of darker souls who derived some sort of sexual or sadistic pleasure from beating children in a calculated ritual with a heavy leather strap.

Apart from all the other moral and practical reasons why it was unacceptable, let's just notice that if you make an internet search on this topic, most of the links are connected with sexual fetish or sado/masochism.

Now, those aspects have not just come into existence in the last few years. Many of the current participants in that area will have acquired the interest from the actions of their pedagogues thirty or forty years ago during their own adolescent years.

Back then, there would have been a significant number of teachers with motives along those lines; we can't be sure of which ones, and therefore to my mind any of them who used a Lochgelly strap is at least a suspect.

I also think there is a tendency for painful childhood memories to emerge as people age, perhaps in their fifties,sixties and seventies, and the present day culture is likely to encourage rather than suppress this.

We are seeing it to some extent with the more extreme cases of sexual and physical abuse in educational, care and religious institutions that have been coming to public attention in recent years, but it may well be that that the whole topic of school belting will come under focus as the next few years progress.

Certainly the final generation of victims, at the receiving end from the late 1960s through into the 1980s, a period when it should have been obvious that it was no longer acceptable, who are now men (or mostly men) in their middle age or beyond, may have their say. And many of the perpetrators, who may still be working or at least healthy retirees, may yet find they are held to account in some way. Personally, I think that would be just.

Paul McLean says

For it or against it..the belt was badly abused when I was at school and I still hate many of the teachers for their sadism and sheer joy they got out of belting. In an extreme case a left handed girl in my class at primary was constantly belted by a male teacher for not using her right hand and when she did use it was belted for bad writing ! I rest my case.